The Root Cause of Anxiety: Hurry Up and Slow Down - Dr. Natasha Ghosh
Dr. Natasha Ghosh - Bio
Dr Natasha Ghosh is not your ordinary counsellor. With 20+ years of experience in psychology, a TEDx speaker and a dedicated educator, she is on a mission to empower others to live authentically, find clarity and make lasting change.
Blending conventional and complementary therapies, Natasha's approach offers clients a unique path to deep healing and transformation.
Natasha brings with her a wealth of knowledge, inspiring audiences to live with purpose in a way that suits them.
Her methods have helped countless people find emotional grounding, peace and a renewed sense of self.
Natasha is a mom of 2 girls who often wishes that not everything was a learning moment for personal development!
Summary:
When the world demands high-speed living, can taking a moment to slow down help us speed up? Is there a root cause of anxiety and if so, what does that look like?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh, a seasoned clinical counsellor, shares talks about how the pressures of society can amplify our stress and how recognizing what's in our control can be a game-changer for our mental state.
Anxiety isn't just an individual struggle; it ripples through our families, affecting even the smallest members. As Dr. Ghosh and I share stories, we reveal how our coping mechanisms, from the foods we crave to the devices we can't seem to put down, can inadvertently influence our children. We also consider the power of sharing our anxieties, whether it's with a friend, a therapist, or the quiet confidant of nature, and how these vulnerable exchanges can lead to healing. Breaking through the noise of today emphasizes the vitality of presentness and the potential locked within our breath.
From the simple act of switching off notifications to the practice of breathwork, we highlight tools that invite calmness into our bodies and minds.
Takeaways:
Recognizing Anxiety's Signals: Understand that anxiety is a signal from our body urging us to adjust when things aren't right. Pay attention to these signals as a first step toward management.
The Impact of Slowing Down: Actively create moments of stillness in your daily routine to significantly lower anxiety levels. This includes practices like turning off notifications and prioritizing self-care.
Breathwork for Calmness: Learn and apply proper breathing techniques to calm the fight or flight response, a key strategy in reducing anxiety and building distress tolerance.
Building Self-Trust: Develop a deep trust in oneself through practices that enhance your ability to cope with anxiety, such as recognizing and releasing tension in the body.
The Role of Support: Never underestimate the importance of seeking professional help or reaching out to supportive networks when anxiety becomes overwhelming.
Mindful Practices and Self-Care: Embrace practical methods such as prioritizing moments of relaxation, practicing deep breathing, and consciously slowing down to manage anxiety effectively.
Definition, Resources and Example Accommodations:
Anxiety Defined:
Anxiety is a natural stress response, marked by feelings of worry, nervousness, or fear about what's coming. It's your body's way of preparing to face a challenging situation.
Autonomic Nervous System Defined:
The autonomic nervous system (ANS) is a part of the nervous system that controls involuntary bodily functions, including heart rate, digestion, respiratory rate, pupillary response, urination, and sexual arousal. It operates automatically without conscious oversight, regulating essential functions to maintain homeostasis, or stability, within the body. The ANS is divided into two main branches:
Sympathetic Nervous System: Often referred to as the "fight or flight" system, it prepares the body to respond to perceived threats by increasing heart rate, raising blood pressure, and releasing stored energy.
Parasympathetic Nervous System: Known as the "rest and digest" system, it conserves energy as it slows the heart rate, decreases blood pressure, and enhances digestion.
These two systems work together, usually in opposition, to maintain balance in the body's internal environment in response to external stimuli.
Resources:
Example Workplace and School Accommodations for Anxiety:
Workplace Accommodations:
Flexible Scheduling: Allowing for varied start times, breaks, or the ability to work from home can help employees manage anxiety related to commuting, rigid schedules, or balancing personal responsibilities.
Quiet Work Environment: Providing access to a quiet workspace or noise-cancelling headphones can help reduce overstimulation and distractions that may exacerbate anxiety.
Clear Expectations and Feedback: Establishing clear job responsibilities and providing regular, constructive feedback can reduce anxiety related to job performance and expectations.
Support Services: Offering access to employee assistance programs (EAPs) that provide counselling or therapy services can be invaluable.
School Accommodations:
Extended Time on Tests and Assignments: Giving students with anxiety additional time to complete tests and assignments can reduce pressure and test-taking anxiety.
Preferential Seating: Allowing students to sit in a location that feels most comfortable to them, such as near the door or at the front of the class, can help them feel more secure and focused.
Breaks During Class: Permitting students to take short, supervised breaks can help them manage feelings of anxiety and return to class more prepared to learn.
Counselling Support: Providing access to school counsellors or psychologists who can work with students to develop coping strategies for anxiety.
Chapters:
00:00:00 Hurry Up and Slow Down
00:09:28 Understanding and Managing Anxiety Symptoms
00:20:54 Managing Anxiety and Building Trust
00:32:17 Exploring Anxiety and Stress Management
00:37:13 Managing Stress Through Breath and Relaxation
00:48:36 Connect and Support the Show
Transcript
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 00:00
I think that we're too fast. I think that our life is too fast for what our biology is set up for and most of the clients that I see right now we are slowing down to speed up, because actually we're not. We're trying to keep up with all of these things that you've just listed. And as you're listing it, I can already feel my chest tightening a little bit and I can just feel the overwhelm of all the things that that sounds like. And I think that there is this aspect of slowing down and coming back to ourselves, and what is important, rather than getting swept along Like all of those things that you talk about, I think encourages us to just get swept along in our lives. And then I think that's part of what anxiety is telling us. It's like stop, stop, like come back, come back, come back to yourself, come back to your, to your wholeness and to who you are. You don't need to get swept along.
Tim Reitsma 00:57
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01:46
I admit I went into this episode about anxiety, feeling anxious. There's always more work than time, constant distractions and way too much pressure trying to keep up with others. Does this sound familiar? Hey, tim here and thanks for tuning into another episode of the Invisible Condition podcast, where we talk about advocacy and unusually normal things the conditions, diseases and illnesses we live with. We will end the stigma of invisible conditions by empowering voices, and today's voice is brought to us by Dr Natasha Gosh. Dr Natasha is not your ordinary counselor. With over 20 years of experience, she is on a mission to empower others to live authentically. By the end of this episode, you will have at least one more encouragement to hurry up and slow down. Life is busy, but guess what? There are only 24 hours in a day and today is time we take some of that back.
02:38
If you're facing anxiety or supporting someone who is, this episode is full of straightforward insights and advice you'll want to hear. Have a listen, dr Natasha. I had to introduce you both with Dr. I know we've gone back and forth on that, shared some last with that, but I'm just really excited for this conversation. I say that a lot on most episodes just because I'm curious about what we're gonna be talking about. We're gonna be talking about anxiety and I was joking with some friends about I'm anxious about the conversation on anxiety. But before we get into this, let's introduce you to our audience. Who are you and what is firing you up right now?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 03:21
Well, firstly, thank you for having me on the show, tim. I'm very excited to be chatting with you. I've enjoyed all of our conversations thus far. Who am I? I have so many things. I was actually talking with somebody yesterday and we were talking about business and strategy and how we need to niche down and I was like but I do all these things and I really. But today on the show I'm here as a registered clinical counselor, a hypnotherapist and someone who does a lot of work with anxiety Hypnotherapist.
Tim Reitsma 03:57
I actually didn't know that about you and I should have known that I'm like, oh, maybe like, can you hypnotize me? No, I don't know if we want to do that on the show but that would be fascinating. Well, firstly I can't hypnotize you.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 04:08
I can facilitate you to come into a hypnotic state and, unlike a Vegas stage show, no one's getting naked unless they want to. So, oh, I love that.
Tim Reitsma 04:18
I love that hypnotic state.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 04:20
I was hypnotized once, I think I was, I don't know.
Tim Reitsma 04:24
It was very strange, but also it left me very curious. Maybe that's a show for another state Another time.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 04:29
Yeah, yeah, another state, but I think there's something that's firing you up right now, because I know we're going to be doing a lot of things that we're going to be doing.
Tim Reitsma 04:38
I think there's something that's firing you up right now, because I know we talked about it before we hit the start button. Am I correct in saying this? I?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 04:45
think there's a lot of things that are firing me up, I appear. So there's a couple of things. One is like sort of on this topic of anxiety, kind of understanding both the spaces of what is ours to hold but what is being put onto us from society that drives this anxious behavior and this anxious way of being. But the other thing that's driving me right now is casting aside a lot of my social conditioning and taking a one-way trip to India. So I'm not sure if that's what you were referring to, but those are the two things that are firing me up right now.
Tim Reitsma 05:21
Oh well, yeah, I love that one-way trip to India. I am very curious about that and we could probably create a whole travel episode.
05:29
There we go Another time, just telling my curiosity, but we're going to talk about the root cause of anxiety and, for those who are listening, this isn't just going to be like take some notes and now you have no more anxiety. But I think what we're going to get to is really understanding where anxiety comes from. I think that's where we're going to go today, and what is your definition, or the definition you work with, that defines anxiety?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 05:55
That's a great question. I wish I had thought about that before I came on. I can already feel myself like activating a little bit going. I really want to make sure I say the right thing in this moment.
06:05
So I think that when we think about anxiety for me, the way that I work with it, it's the way that our body tells us that something's not right for us, it's not in alignment, it's not working, and we need to start listening to those messages to be able to alleviate that feeling. But I think what happens is we spend so much time not listening to those messages because we're trying to fit into an understanding of what it means to be a good person or what it means to be a person in this world, that we stop listening to our own voices and we start listening to everything around us and it's impossible to live up to those expectations all the time, and that creates that activation and that anxiety which is, oh my gosh, like I don't belong here. What if I do something wrong? What if this isn't the right move to make?
Tim Reitsma 07:01
I just did a quick check on Google and your definition is spotless, so hopefully that eases the anxiety in that.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 07:08
Gosh, you mean Google says the same thing. I'm like, I don't know, maybe that's not so special anymore and now I need to go find something else. Right, like we just make up this stuff in our minds, I've already just created a story that's now spinning something new for myself, where I could have just gone, oh great, lovely, and then just left it, and I think that's the other thing too. We spend so much time in our minds that it does create a challenge in being able to hear the messages of ourselves and from our body as well.
Tim Reitsma 07:41
Yeah, here's putt on. It's like that for me. The way I feel anxiety is my chest is tight, my posture is off, I can't sleep, my breath is very short and the what ifs start popping in a little fight, and so it was interesting.
08:01
just as I said, hey, you know you're close to Google, and it's like, oh, I'm not that special, right? Because those are the thoughts that automatically pop up. Is you know, oh, you're on the invisible condition podcast. Well, there's hundreds of other shows on chronic illness, so I'm not that special, and so it creates that state of anxiety in us.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 08:21
I think so, and I think even just this idea that we you know that we need to be special, is also interesting as well. Right, like what is it that's driving us to want to be seen in a certain way that we don't have within us or that we're looking for Because you know it's so interesting? Like we all want to be seen as special, we all want to be heard and understood for who we are, as unique human beings. But that means we're all the same, doesn't it? If we're all unique, then we're actually all the same in some ways. So I think we forget that. I think I wonder if that's also part of what's driving the way that we feel is that we've actually stopped looking at each other as human beings and seeing each other and being present with each other and in connection and community. But I'm curious what do you do when you start feeling that tightness in your chest and the thoughts that go running through your head?
Tim Reitsma 09:18
Oh, I just watched Netflix Nice.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 09:23
I eat chips.
Tim Reitsma 09:26
My daughter. The day we were recording this, we went for a walk. I went for a walk with my kids and she said Dad, why did you eat so many chocolate chip cookies? And I said well, you know, sometimes when I get anxious, when I'm not feeling well, when I feel like I'm starting to, I start to get depressed. I don't feel well about myself. I compensate by eating chocolate chip cookies. And she paused and she said I think I'm feeling anxious and now I need to eat some chocolate chip cookies, dad.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 10:02
Nicely done, well done. Passing on the behavior and we've talked about that before right, like how we just keep transmitting these behaviors and what's interesting is we recognize it, like you're seeing that it's happening, and we still make that choice to lean into the thing that is the immediate feel good, but the long term not so much.
Tim Reitsma 10:25
Yeah, it's. I've worked hard at this where I would fall into states of just binge-eating and binge-watching, and I'll give myself a bit of permission to do so. And I did so a few weeks ago, before recording this, and it was about half a day and I liked baking. So that's an outlet for me. I just get in the zone of following a recipe, I ate a few cinnamon buns and watched some TV and then I said, okay enough, yes.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 10:56
Time to go.
Tim Reitsma 10:56
And I got on my bike and I went for a bike ride and I just got the right energy going in my body.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 11:02
That's amazing and I came home and I felt good and I could breathe.
Tim Reitsma 11:07
And it's just that reset. Because if we let I find, if I let my brain just dwell on that negative, I start to lose hope and then it spirals.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 11:16
Yeah, I mean I love this. What you've just talked about is one we don't need to resist the feeling and the experience. The more we resist it, the more those chocolate chip cookies gain power and control, or that Netflix show. And at the same time, there is like a limit. There is a moment where we kind of need to take charge and we need to make some choices, and I do think that that's probably a like I'm all for compassion and kindness, obviously, like I really, I really truly believe in that, and sometimes I feel that saying no or that's enough now is actually an act of compassion and kindness.
11:54
I often find that sometimes, if I'm not careful, avoidance masquerades is compassion and I'm like, oh, it's okay, it's okay. But there is that moment where we we do need to take control. Now, of course, you know there are varying levels of anxiety, depression, mental health and illness, and so I don't want to discount and be like, oh, if you just sucked it up and tried a little harder, like that's not what I mean. There are these, you know, there's these circumstances, but I think that if we can start catching these moments a little bit earlier and start changing, it changes the neuronal pathway that changes our choice patterns, and that's so important.
Tim Reitsma 12:34
Yeah, anxiety in itself is often an invisible condition. Yes, and as someone who lives with an invisible condition, anxiety also comes out.
12:44
And you know just kind of backtracking to what you said about just all the inputs we take in all day through social media, through friends. If you're in the school system, you know different groups of people if you're in the workplace or on LinkedIn or Instagram or TikTok. There's so many inputs and have you seen in your work just a change in how we, as this event, in this generalization, but compare ourselves to others, seek that dopamine hit yeah, like oh, are people checking it out? Yes, just yes.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 13:20
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, right, and I think that I think that we're too fast. I think that our life is too fast for what our biology is set up for, and most of the clients that I see right now we are slowing down, to speed up, because actually we're not. We're trying to keep up with all of these things that you've just listed, and as you're listing it, I can already like feel my chest tightening a little bit and I can just like feel the overwhelm of all the things that that sounds like. And I think that there is this aspect of slowing down and coming back to ourselves, and what is important, rather than getting swept along Like all of those things that you talk about, I think encourages us to just get swept along in our lives.
14:08
And then I think that's part of what anxiety is telling us. It's like stop, stop, like come back, come back, come back to yourself, come back to your, to your wholeness and to who you are. You don't need to get swept along. And so a lot of the work that we're doing right now is both at that cognitive level of what is it that I want, what is it that I desire, but also at that base level of physiology, because we're at this constant level of activation, we're actually not meeting the world in a way that has capacity. We're meeting the world already at capacity and there's no space for things to go wrong. And so I think if we can take that step back and so if we go back to that very, very definition of the root cause of anxiety, there is that sort of cognitive component, the thought component of it, but there's also the biology component, the physical component that taps into that feeling that we can focus on to actually change how we experience the world.
Tim Reitsma 15:09
I think we're going to like probably ping pong, this back and forth of like. As you're talking, I feel anxious and then I kind of like remind myself it's coming up. You're absolutely right, we're so busy. And as you're talking, a mentor, a previous mentor, said to me once Tim, it's time to hurry up and slow down.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 15:31
Yeah, I love that.
Tim Reitsma 15:35
And I love that, and it's something I don't. Maybe I just need to put that on my monitor or somewhere in my house, it's just slow down. And what do you do when you feel anxious, like, how do you feel it? Where does it show up for?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 15:48
you.
Tim Reitsma 15:50
And then, how do you release that anxiety?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 15:51
So, for me, I spend a lot of time trying to do it in my mind, right, like so, oh, what am I feeling? Like I'm going to name my feeling. You know what is it? What is true, like classic CBT sort of things. And then I realized it wasn't enough and so I really started tuning into the body a little bit more. So now I know that when I feel anxious or when I'm starting to feel like something's not right here, I can feel it in my chest tightening up, or I can feel it in my fists, I can feel it in my jaw. So I can tell you a story, that about how I notice it.
16:32
So I was invited to a conference. I was a workshop and most of the people knew each other. That was there and I was invited Like people wanted to hear what I had to say, like I had to remind myself that. So, firstly, people want to hear what you have to say. I'm like okay, that's interesting and that's probably my own therapy session for later, that I won't bore your listeners with that. But we were in this circle and we were passing a ball back to each other and when you would pass, the person would pass the ball and then the person would say their name and something they were interested in. So I'm standing in the circle of people I don't know and I'm watching the ball getting passed around and all of a sudden, I'm like I can feel that I'm not breathing as deeply anymore and I can feel that my chest is tightening a little bit. I'm like what's happening right now? Like why am I not relaxed in this moment?
17:20
And what I realized was that my body was having an old reaction, which is nine years old, on the baseball playground, not getting chosen to play sports because I wasn't good enough. And so sometimes these old feelings come back and to me that that feeling was there wasn't the problem, because I think healing from anxiety, or healing from anything, is being able to recognize when you do get activated and having a different relationship with that. And so that's where I noticed it first. So I was like oh, my body is telling me something before my mind can get online. So I have two choices. One I can be like oh, I wonder why I feel this way, and I'm like I don't really think that's going to be. I don't have that kind of time.
18:02
So all I did was I took a few deep breaths, I elongated my exhale, which helps to activate your rest and digest or that safety system, and I was able to deactivate my autonomic nervous system. Because that's what's happening when you feel that tightness is that your fight or flight system is activating because there is a perceived danger. So I was able to calm down my nervous system, because we all know that when you tell someone to calm down or nothing's wrong, you just want to slap the other person in the face, really like that's kind of what you want to do, and you can't. Just don't do that, like honestly, and you can't tell someone to slow down your heart rate or your blood pressure. It's not possible. It's an involuntary response.
18:43
But what is voluntary is how you use your breath and that changes that whole physiological response. So that's always my step number one. And then in the moment it wasn't appropriate to go. I wonder why my body is activating this way. So I was able to then like come back to it and be like huh, I wonder what's happening. And I was able to do it in a place of curiosity because I wasn't in the moment anymore, I was deactivated and I was able to do that. So that's how I deal with most of my anxious feelings, which is, recognize what's happening in the body, take a few breaths to deactivate, name what's happening and then understand what is actually real right now.
Tim Reitsma 19:22
So much practice. As you're talking, I'm like focusing on my hand, I'm like exhaling Okay, is this, you know? And also, yeah, just to go back to that, just calm down, you know it's, it's not that big of a deal. Yes, that is just just don't say that no, honestly. There's just a little bit of ignorance wrapped in there. Just don't say that. You know I've got kids. It doesn't work with them.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 19:47
Yeah, there's a difference between calm down and it's going to be okay, we will get through this together. Right, the goal is the same, but the you know the way that we talk about it can be different.
Tim Reitsma 20:07
You also said something that sparked a different question. Another question around if somebody says hey, I'm feeling anxious right now you know, kind of in that thought process of well, just don't say calm down, how, how, how do you help someone who has expressed hey, I'm anxious, or I live with anxiety, or this is setting, setting me off right now?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 20:29
So if we were in like a therapy session versus just somebody on the street going, hey, I feel anxious right now that I've just met, I would handle it in two very different ways, right? So if we were in a session together, we'd kind of probably talking about how often do you feel that way, or what does that experience look like for you, how do you feel in your body, what are the thought processes that are going on. So we're looking at multiple things. But if, if I was like like randomly with a friend and they're like I feel anxious right now, I'd probably say to them like let's regulate together and I'll take a few deep breaths and they might put their hand on my shoulder or they might just touch me for, like, if it's weird, because we're in public and that you know we don't want to be embracing in that moment, I might just like stand next to them because we're we're actually co-regulating, and I think this is so important to understand is that when we are in places of leadership or as a parent even, we're the regulator. I always feel like I'm a choice when I say that the regulator. So, but we are, we're the ones that are in charge of the of the moment and we have different ways of doing that.
21:39
We can use that with our language, but we can also use it in how we ground our own bodies and how we are setting the foundation for the other one to look. It's like. It's like when you're on the airplane and there's turbulence and you look to the flight attendant to see what they're doing, and if they're sitting down, you're like we're in trouble. But if they're still serving drinks, you're like okay, I think I can be fine and you start coming down. It's exactly like that, except we're. We're doing it with our breath, we're doing it with our body and we're doing it with our energy.
Tim Reitsma 22:09
It's such good insight for for someone as a friend, maybe as a caregiver, as a colleague or even a leader in an organization, cause we in the in previous life doing a lot of leadership work, a lot of consulting in that space it's like the energy we bring in is the energy everyone else is going to feel, and if I'm feeling anxious, I know my, my family, my kids, my wife knows like what's going on with you, I know what's happening.
22:39
And you can feel it and and sometimes it's like it's okay, like I'm just going to feel it right now yeah, yeah, First sure. And then it's okay. What do I need to do to bring that level down, bring my heart down?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 22:54
And remember to oh sorry go on yeah.
Tim Reitsma 22:56
Oh, no, no, no.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 22:58
To remember that, yes, your breath is the first. For me, the breath is always the first thing. That is what's going, that's the easiest access point into changing the energy. But the second piece which I really love that you've said a few times, is I'm going to let myself feel it, because it's when we try and resist it, it's when we try and put it down that your body goes.
23:19
Excuse me, I'm trying to tell you that we're in danger right now and you're not listening. So I'm just going to amp up that feeling, as opposed to take a few breaths, acknowledge what's happening, and that actually will help you calm down. I think people feel afraid sometimes to acknowledge and feel the feeling because I think it will never end. But feelings ebb and flow in about 90 seconds, and so if you can allow yourself to have that feeling in about 90 seconds, maybe even less, you'll notice that there is a decline and it will pass. It's only when we start hooking in, like when we feel that sensation and then we hook in and we add meaning to it and then we talk about it and we talk about it some more, that it actually stays for longer.
Tim Reitsma 24:05
And meaning to it and the hook in. Can you tell us a little more about that? My mind is I've tried to think of the last time when I just got stuck in a cranky mood or an anxious stance. I'm curious about that.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 24:18
Yeah. So if we use my example at the very beginning, if I was like oh, I'm feeling this tightness because I'm worried that no one likes me, I'm worried that no one wants to pass the ball to me. You know, like I'm my 40-something-year-old self, nobody wants to pass the ball to me. But if I start making story, it's actually creating more anxiety, it's creating more energy. But if I can say, oh, I'm having a feeling right now, or I'm having a sensation or an emotion right now, and I can allow myself to have the sensation without asking why because sometimes it's not important to ask why and I know that sounds very strange because as human beings in this world, we're like why, if I know the why, and sometimes why is important, but sometimes it's really not Sometimes it's enough to know that sometimes I get this way and if I let it pass, I can then create capacity for something else. So that's what I mean by getting hooked.
25:16
What is the meaning that we're trying to make here? Oh, they didn't. It's because they didn't like me, or because I wasn't good enough, or because did you see how they snub me like this? Whatever that is, and it may have nothing to do with you, but you've created a story to this sensation. Because otherwise, otherwise, why am I feeling this?
Tim Reitsma 25:40
I feel like I'm the world's best author at making up my own narrative.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 25:46
Yes, we all are. We're taught to do that, so well done, well done for making this world. Yeah, everyone gets a goal.
Tim Reitsma 25:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, making up an ending and just that just manifests into often if we, if we allow those hooks to set into a place of even more anxiety and maybe even into a different condition. Yeah absolutely In that space. You know, I think when we were even planning out this episode or talking about it, we were talking even just about. You know, go back to all the impulse and it's hard to show those things.
26:29
You know I'm not here going to say okay, just time to put your phone down and snooze your notifications because, you're a listener. You're not going to do that. I know you're not. You might do it and then feel anxious about missing something and then re-enable your notifications. So, like, how can we practically hurry up and slow down? How can we actually do it?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 26:52
Yeah, so you're not going to like what I meant about to say, which is turn off your phone, put it down. I think. So for me it really is saying it's okay to like. Yeah, I say all right, all right, put your phone down. I see, I don't know if you're listening on this podcast and currently has his phone up. If you're watching it on video, you'll see it. But I think it's creating, which is hard to do, and I think it's this process of practice, of distress, tolerance, right.
27:26
So anxiety is also a doubt disorder. What's going to happen? What am I missing? What if I miss something? What if this happens? Right, like I'm, better make sure everything is right, because I don't want to make a mistake, I don't want to be at fault, I don't want something to go wrong, and so we're trying to create certainty in a life where there really isn't a lot of certainty. And so if we can then build a tolerance to that distress as well as an inner knowing that life is going to happen. But what the important thing isn't whether I've dotted my T's and crossed my eyes, but I have a belief and a foundational sense of trust in myself to handle it, or at least have resources around. That creates that's a whole other ballgame. That, to me, is the work that we do. Distress, tolerance and internal trust these are the two pieces.
Tim Reitsma 28:23
Distress, tolerance and internal trust. So there you go. Well, to find that in the show notes, I think we could that's like two more episodes right there, because I think it's so, so important, because my mind, as you were talking, was going to somebody might be listening to this who lives with an invisible and maybe going or maybe going through a diagnosis, and is incredibly, and is incredibly anxious about an outcome that we don't know about, or a medical appointment that we're trying to get and we can't diagnosis.
28:52
That is taking forever, and there's that anxiety, and so it's hard to have that internal trust when we have to rely on an external source in order to calm that mind. But isn't that the?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 29:06
just such a fine line. So I think the first problem is how we've been taught to trust external sources to calm ourselves down. We've outsourced our power and our agency in many ways. But what you're talking about is legit Like I don't know, my doctor knows something, my radiologist knows something. I need to get this appointment because I don't know what's happening inside of me, right?
29:34
So when I think about when I'm sick or when I've had things that we've gone through, or my dad's been recently hospitalized, like what do we? How do we quell that anxiety of not knowing? Because we are waiting for something external? That's not outsourcing my power. That's the reality of what it is. But how am I going to choose to respond to this? Now, it's not I don't want to be like well, we just have to simply choose to be okay and like, take a few deep breaths and we'll be fine. Like, honestly, I'm not going to say that Like, of course we're going to feel anxiety. Of course we're going to feel worry. That's legit. The anxiety and the worry that I'm talking is about the things that we feel when you, when you said, what if I miss something on my phone? Right, like we generalized that worry to everything in our life and we've forgotten that there are places where we can let it be.
Tim Reitsma 30:30
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is like yeah, there's, there's. Anxiety isn't necessarily a bad thing. No, it's, it's, it's a signal. And how do we process that?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 30:40
Yes.
Tim Reitsma 30:42
And it's like you know I'll admit I haven't admitted this yet I've been putting off a test. I was told that my Crohn's is likely not in remission. The surgery solved the problem at the time. Medication's likely not, and so I had to do this test and I put it off for two weeks. I did it. I did it the day we were recording this, but because I was anxious for the results and it's like well, what if they're bad? And then this morning I woke up and went well, what if they're?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 31:13
not, yes, yeah.
Tim Reitsma 31:15
And so again, it's like it's, it's okay to feel.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 31:21
Absolutely.
Tim Reitsma 31:22
And and if we're feeling it, are you an advocate of reach out to someone or just internalize?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 31:28
Oh, let me take a moment to think about that question. I feel, I feel like there's only one right answer Well, and it's true, it's a well, and I think, reaching out to someone. You know, it was interesting that the I was having a conversation with a client earlier today and we were talking about talking with people and I said, you know, I would really love if we can build this space where the very first person that you want to talk to about something is yourself first, and then we reach out, like so how do we find? And? But I think what you're talking about is a little bit different.
32:02
This is, like truly an out, an external situation. This isn't like I'm anxious having this conversation with Natasha, or not, maybe, which is which makes me feel really funny, because I'm like it's just me, like why would you feel anxious about that? Which, again, like relates to this idea that we all have different experiences and how we relate to things. But, of course, reaching out to someone and talking about it is important, and there is space for that to be a friend, there is space for that to be a therapist, there is space for that to be a pastor, if you have a faith that you, and there's also actually space for that to be the river in the ocean, like sometimes, it's just about voicing what is inside, so it is no longer inside of us. Does that make sense?
Tim Reitsma 32:50
Oh, I love that, so it's no longer inside of us. It's. You're not giving your anxiety a voice, You're releasing it.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 32:58
You're letting it out.
Tim Reitsma 33:00
And I've heard people talk about, well, I don't want to give it a voice. It's like. So I love that reframing of you're releasing it, whether it's to a friend, and you know I'll say you know, maybe choose your friends wisely and who you're sharing with or maybe start the conversation with.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 33:16
I just want you to listen.
Tim Reitsma 33:18
So just don't, just don't tell me to.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 33:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just want you to listen, and that's what you're saying is like I really just want to have that voice outside of me, right? And I think there's that difference between that inner critic, where that voice gets louder and louder and louder and you don't want to hear that voice versus the anxiety voice, which is again getting louder and louder, but by actually, maybe it's for both, like, I think you should, I think we should, yeah, I'm going to let's rewind a moment and go back and say, yeah, give it a voice so that it doesn't have the internal power anymore.
Tim Reitsma 33:52
That's fantastic and as I think about that definition of the root cause of anxiety and how we, how we and we're generalizing, I did a how many people live with anxiety, and it was like I don't know. 390 million people in the world live with anxiety. It's not insignificant, yes, yes, it's there and and I'm hearing that there's it's not necessarily positive or negative, it's not bad or good. There's anxiety.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 34:19
I want, but I wonder if it's helpful actually to think about it differently, in the sense that fear and worry and certain levels of anxiety these are all normal. It's when it's your constant companion that it becomes something that you want to work with and you may want to change.
Tim Reitsma 34:42
I'm scribbling a note down. So if there's a little awkward pause there, a constant companion. I don't know why. I just saw that on a t-shirt. This says my constant companion is anxiety, and if you see somebody with that on a shirt, you just give them a maybe they need to chat.
34:58
Man that is such an interesting way to frame it where you know fear and worry, that fight, flight freeze moment, where you're feeling your body tense up, your shallow breath, you're afraid to get tick-blast. But if it's your constant companion, if it's your go-to, if you wake up every morning in that state, then if that's resonating with somebody who's listening, maybe there's opportunity there to take a deeper dive because it's not a great place to live, because it affects our health, absolutely.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 35:33
I mean we think about heart disease and stress conditions and other physical ailments.
35:38
You know there's so much evidence and research now that looks at how stress gets internalized as these invisible conditions that we are experiencing, and I mean I don't know if it's as simple as if we had less stress, we would feel better.
35:56
But I think there is an aspect of truth to that, which is when you slow down and when you remove some things from your life Like I remember when I went back to grad school and my hair started falling out because I was so stressed and then, once I graduated, like my luscious locks coming back there are these physical components to stress that actually change things.
36:19
So I think when we are working with conditions, whatever they are, we need to be looking at it at multiple levels. It's not enough to just look at something at a cognitive, at the mental level, it's not enough to look at it at the body level. We need to look at how these two things are intertwined, because our body impacts how we think and then how we think impacts what we experience in our body as well. And then, coming back to that hypnotherapy piece, actually, there's a lot of stories that are playing automatic playlists in the back of our mind and these core beliefs that we have that we may not even be aware of, and that's like that subconscious mindset work and the subconscious mind work where we can start pulling things out that we didn't even know existed but are actually driving our behaviors and driving our beliefs in our self.
Tim Reitsma 37:13
When you're talking. A story just popped in my mind Just over a year ago. My doctor said you need to remove all stress from your life in order to get healthy enough for surgery. So I looked at my wife and went we've got a mortgage. We live in one of the most expensive cities in the world We've got two kids and I just left my job.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 37:35
Did you stop your doctor?
Tim Reitsma 37:38
I asked him for a loan that I didn't have to come back to. Which we should come in. So he didn't say anything about it. But it's easy to say. It's easy to say that, oh, we need to slow down, we need to remove that stress, but I think there's some practical ways to slow down. I think, as we look to wind down, let's end on that. What are some practical takeaways? I think I already heard one Turn your notifications off.
38:10
Put your phone down. That gives me anxiety, but I'm going to do it. I am going to do it.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 38:17
Really, we all know what they are, the things that I'm going to say. I don't mean to be condescending. It's sleep, it's nutrition, it's spending time with loved ones, it's doing all those things that we feel are privileges now, but are actually the things that we need to be doing for ourselves. That should be in place. That is a huge piece of what can create a safety in the body. I think so. But if those things are hard and I understand, because then there's the distress of, oh my God, if I have to go to bed and I don't get this thing done and then I'm going to do this and I have to get that let's practice breathing. That is the easiest thing that we can do.
39:01
As we talked about before, you can't change the activation of your autonomic nervous system, but your breath changes that. When we first started studying breath in the 30s and 40s, people were breathing about six to 10 breaths a minute. Right now we're breathing between 15 and 20 breaths a minute. When we're breathing that fast, like if we saw a dog panting, we'd be like, oh, it's scared. That's what we're doing, yet we have normalized that as being okay.
39:27
If all of the other things are hard, we can at least start with changing our breath. We start taking longer, slower breaths For many people. I have clients that come in who haven't been breathing well and their breath is dysfunctional. It's actually quite scary to take a deep breath. It feels very uncomfortable because you're trying to tell your body it's safe and your body is going uh, no, that is the one thing I would say. That first practical piece that doesn't take any time out of your day, doesn't create so much distress, is just to practice that breath, to start deactivating your nervous system, so you don't always have that cortisol and adrenaline running through your body, so that you're not always at a seven and an eight on a scale of one to 10 of anxiety. You are at least starting a little bit lower and giving you more capacity to handle what's coming your way.
Tim Reitsma 40:18
I don't know what the autonomic this.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 40:22
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tim Reitsma 40:24
So let's, let's talk about that. Yeah, sorry.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 40:27
Yeah, yeah, sorry I could have explained that better when we were first starting. So your autonomic nervous system is your. It's that involuntary system, it's a survival mechanism. It evolved in the time of saber-toothed tigers and you have your sympathetic or your fight and flight system, and then you have your parasympathetic, which is your rest and digest. The sympathetic system that fight or flight was meant to be, like saber-toothed tiger run hide and then rest and digest goes. Whew, I'm safe now, like.
40:57
My favorite part of that system is that it diverts blood from your digestive system to other parts of your body, cause you're like it's a saber-toothed tiger man, you don't need to digest lunch right now, but then when, when you're in safety, it's like okay, we can return, our heart rate lowers, our blood vessels dilate again, our lungs are able to come back into normal positioning, right, and we take those deeper breaths. So we are living in a constant. Most of us are living in an activated state, in that fight or flight state, because everything is a day your mortgage, your children, your wife, this thing that you had to do, like all the things that you listed off, you see as potential dangers and it activates that saber-toothed tiger system. And so what we by taking those breaths. It allows us to deactivate and come into rest and digest, and so when we do that, maybe your wife and your mortgage and your kids don't seem so scared after all.
41:58
I'm just kidding, obviously, and my apologies to your wife in this moment. I've never met her. I'm sure she's loving it so but it gives us capacity to handle things so that we're not always so activated. It gives us capacity to be in a state of relaxation. So, and again, the other thing, maybe the other practical tip beyond breathing, is actually to call out consciously when you are feeling relaxed, when you're having a good time, when things feel okay. Because we don't spend enough time doing that. We have negativity bias which says look for danger, look for danger, and we're always calling that out, but we never sit back and say, oh, I feel really good right now. So if we can remember to do that, it amplifies a different part of the story as well.
Tim Reitsma 42:47
Breathing. As you've been talking, I've actually been practicing breathing and watching and feeling it, and somebody said to me once that hey, if your tongue is always on the roof of your mouth.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 42:58
that means you're holding a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety Is that true, yeah, I mean, your jaw is tight, your tongue is at the top of your mouth, 100%. It's one of my tells. Actually. I'm like, oh, release the tongue from the top of your mouth, let's, maybe we can do it together if we have time.
43:12
Okay, so I'm going to get you and everybody else that's listening to just take a mental note of how you're feeling right now, just to notice any sensations in the body, to notice where your shoulders are and to notice where your breath lands, without changing anything, like if you're breathing into your chest, into the center of your body or into your belly. Just notice those things, okay. And then together we're going to take one exhale out, and then we're going to breathe in through our nose for one, two, three, four, and then we're going to pause. And then we're going to exhale five, four, three, two, one, and then pause, okay. And then we're going to inhale again for four, and I'm going to let you count on your own and then you're going to pause, and then you're going to exhale for six.
44:05
If four and six feels too long, you can make it two and four, whatever feels good to you. You want to start breathing in and out through our nose, but you can exhale through the mouth as well. And on the exhale, notice if you can lower your shoulders a little bit, sink a little bit heavier into the chair that you're in. If you're driving right now, please keep your eyes open, and if you're not, you can feel free to close your eyes or have a soft gaze in front of you, and then we're going to take one more breath and then, when you're finished, notice what your body feels like and what has stayed the same or what may have changed.
Tim Reitsma 44:49
That's powerful For me. I feel heavier in my chair, I feel more relaxed. I don't feel you know that I carry tension in my jaw. Some nights I go to bed and I'm like man my jaw's sore.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 45:02
My shoulders are sore my eyes are sore.
Tim Reitsma 45:06
So that's something that's such a powerful and practical takeaway is leaning into that and that saying that hurry up and slow down you talked about that as well is consciously being aware of our inputs and where we're looking for those inputs and if we're always looking for that next thing on social media, whether it's LinkedIn and the professional setting, or Instagram or TikTok, whatever it is. Maybe it's an opportunity just to pause that for a day. Maybe that's a challenge. You're listening you're up for that challenge.
45:49
I do it. I do it most Sundays. We've implemented a tech-free sign in our household because we noticed it affecting our kids, my wife and I as well, and so you know we slip up most of the time here and there A little bit checked away and things like that, but it's a conscious decision to put our phones down, put them on silent and set yourself up for a success.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 46:16
If a day is too long, do 20 minutes and start there. You want to set yourself up? The world is hard enough as it is. You don't need to set yourself up for disappointment. So take small steps towards creating that space and that life that you want, and just keep breathing.
Tim Reitsma 46:34
I went into this conversation jokingly. It's like oh, this conversation is making me anxious and honestly I was feeling anxious going into today. Not a lot of sleep, way too much coffee. You know my heart rate is beating faster than it should? It's just the count.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 46:49
Yes.
Tim Reitsma 46:50
And maybe it's a little bit of anxiety, but just such practical insights. Natasha, thank you so much for sharing that with me and with our s. And whether you're living with an invisible condition of anxiety or you're going through diagnosis journey or you're diagnosed with something and you're feeling that, take a moment to pause and sit with it, take some breaths, reach out to someone. I've talked a lot about it on other episodes. I've talked about it on the blog as well.
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 47:25
The importance of reaching out Absolutely.
Tim Reitsma 47:31
Where can people reach you if this is really resonating with them and they need your help? Where could people find?
Dr. Natasha Ghosh 47:37
you Well, thanks Well, firstly, but thank you so much for having me on your podcast and it's been a delight to speak to you. I always enjoy your insights and the things that you have to say, and if you're looking for support, you can find me at wwwdigdeepcounselingcom and all of my services are on there and you can set up a free consult to see if we might be a good fit, or even to just breathe together for a few moments and reach out anytime.
Tim Reitsma 48:08
That's fantastic, and I'll head to the website. Head to wherever you're listening into the show notes. You'll see Dr Natasha's link there as well, and you're a phenomenal human.
48:19
Everybody needs to follow you whether it's on Instagram or on LinkedIn, wherever it is. But we met randomly, sort of randomly, through another work engagement, and I've had many awesome conversations and I know we'll continue to have more in the future. So thanks again for coming on and if you are listening today and this resonates with you, leave us a comment. Connect with me on the show. If you don't have anyone in your immediate circle to connect with, head to the website wwwInvisibleConditioncom.
48:49
Fill up the form there and I'd be more than happy to connect with you and, as always, if this show resonates with you and you know somebody else will benefit from this, send it to them, and I'd love for other people to listen, subscribe, leave us a rating all that good stuff and if you have the means to donate, please do so. There's been a few generous donors already, and that just helps us keep this show going. So have a great day, a less anxious day, and I hope to talk to you soon.
